Audemars Piguet RO Laptimer Michael Schumacher

[willy]

(23-05-2015, 02:45 PM)TimeToWatch.dk Skrev:

(22-05-2015, 07:27 PM)willy Skrev: And i can agree that certain things from high end brands often seep down to normal watches.But it is very rare they create anything really new that revolutionises watch making.Even Tag Heuer have made complication watches that leave AP behind.Its all down to resources a lot of the time.And most high end brands,do not have the money to compete with the big boys of the watch industry.And a lot of watch nerds forget this.A brand like PP or AP could never have made the Springdrive caliber,the development costs alone would have been more than they could earn in a lifetime.Even George Daniels knew he had to go to the big boys to be able to develop the co-axial movement,and many of them could not take the money risk involved.And it is a fact that many high end brands get these special complications from very talented independent watchmakers.They then pay to put their own name on the product.Out scourcing is alive and kicking even in the world of high end watches.Richard Mille developed many watches for AP in years past,that they stuck their own name on,without any mention of RM or his involvment.Now they are combined Everything PP or AP make is wonderfull according to Hodinkee and their own watch brochures.When will watch people realise these people are just a mouthpiece for the watch industry.I read Hodinkee to see new watches,and get a few facts about them.But their opinions about the watches,are of absolutly no interest to me.

Willy få venligst styr på fakta før du smider om dig med den slags indlæg. AP ejer firmaet AP- Renaud & Papi som fungerer som AP's udviklingscenter og vel nok er verdens førende inden for kompliceret horologi. De udvikler og producerer high end complications for AP (alle AP'er med complications ud over kronografer og simpel/perpetual calendar), Cartier (alle deres complications med tourbillon og minute repeaters), Breitling (deres tourbillons), Richard Mille (udvikler og producerer alt kompliceret som RM ikke får fra Vaucher), Hublots complications frem til for ca. et år siden, hvor Hublot kørte in-house efter at have overtaget Concepto, samt meget mere i den absolutte high end complication klasse. 

Din påstand med at Richard Mille har udviklet og produceret for AP er faktisk lige omvendt. RM udvikler og producerer INTET selv og deres complications lavet hos AP hos Renaud & Papi. 

Så spørger I mig er det pt. INGEN i verden, der formår at præsentere noget der ligner det AP gør. Det skulle lige være JLC som også er i samme liga på innovationsfronten af komplicerede urværker. De laver dog udelukkende værker til egne ure hvor AP-Renaud & Papi hjælper en lang række andre firmaer, der ikke selv har udviklings- og produktionsfaciliteter til selv at lave disse ultra giftige complications. 

Dette nye AP Schumi er derfor en 100 % in-house konstruktion der både er udviklet og produceret hos AP i deres udviklingscenter Renaud & Papi. 

/Mads 

 

I have just seen this,so please excuse my late answer.I am fully aware of what AP do,and who they own.And who does what,a chicken could google this.I have never been impressed by brands that have to take over others to get expertise.Even though many do it.Lange do not have to do this for example.They make new models new calibers,and set them in production.It is rubbish to suggest that AP are leading the field in complications.They are miles behind compaired to many brands.AP are not much different than a small independent watch brand,who develop special limited numbers of complication calibers.They have their run of the mill bread and butter watches like the Oak and the Offshore,with production calibers.This is where they earn the money.By buying shares or influence in talented independent watch makers,they can reap the rewards on the backs of others.not to mention the publicity it gives them.What you call a development center is nothing more than another firm.This is the way industry operates all over the world.If you do not have expertise,you buy it.And there is nothing wrong with this.But the watch industry love to use words like-working together or coperation etc etc.And its all sales guf.

                                  You can read about a new fantastic complication nearly everday.This tendency has taken off in recent years,and you might ask why?There are two answers to this,and you can pick the one you believe.One of the ways to break into the big time is for a independent young watchmaker to make a special complication or design.This can mean the birth of a new brand like for ex. F.Journe or being eaten up by a large brand.Complications are the absolute pinical of mechanical watch making,and they carry a lot of prestige.And that is why all the top tier high end brands,are always trying to out do one another.So any new talent out there is very much in demand,to join the race for the ultimate.This is the one side of the coin.

                                  The second answer is this.A high end brand invents a new complication.They make just a few models of this watch,that they send out to prestige watch stores.And then they wait to see how the publicity of unvieling their new master piece has worked,before they make anymore of them.What they need to do is to cover the costs of development,and this is unfortunatly not always the case.But they have achieved their goal of getting publicity as a brand at the forefront of new watch technology.So a lot of this is quite simply a publicity stunt.And how much of this really makes its way down to ordinary watches?A awfull lot of what is done in the watch industry,has been done before.And if you look back in the history of watches,it is definitely not complication watches that have advanced watchmaking .

                                    One little fact worth remembering here is this.Only one brand in the world make a serie produced complication watch.That brand is IWC.Most complication watches have absolutly no feedback from the users about reliability or how long it takes to service them or the costs.I can admire the know how and effort that goes into making them.But to be honest,they have very little to do with our time and date watches.

[TimeToWatch.dk]

(24-05-2015, 02:27 PM)willy Skrev:

(23-05-2015, 02:45 PM)TimeToWatch.dk Skrev:

(22-05-2015, 07:27 PM)willy Skrev: And i can agree that certain things from high end brands often seep down to normal watches.But it is very rare they create anything really new that revolutionises watch making.Even Tag Heuer have made complication watches that leave AP behind.Its all down to resources a lot of the time.And most high end brands,do not have the money to compete with the big boys of the watch industry.And a lot of watch nerds forget this.A brand like PP or AP could never have made the Springdrive caliber,the development costs alone would have been more than they could earn in a lifetime.Even George Daniels knew he had to go to the big boys to be able to develop the co-axial movement,and many of them could not take the money risk involved.And it is a fact that many high end brands get these special complications from very talented independent watchmakers.They then pay to put their own name on the product.Out scourcing is alive and kicking even in the world of high end watches.Richard Mille developed many watches for AP in years past,that they stuck their own name on,without any mention of RM or his involvment.Now they are combined Everything PP or AP make is wonderfull according to Hodinkee and their own watch brochures.When will watch people realise these people are just a mouthpiece for the watch industry.I read Hodinkee to see new watches,and get a few facts about them.But their opinions about the watches,are of absolutly no interest to me.

Willy få venligst styr på fakta før du smider om dig med den slags indlæg. AP ejer firmaet AP- Renaud & Papi som fungerer som AP's udviklingscenter og vel nok er verdens førende inden for kompliceret horologi. De udvikler og producerer high end complications for AP (alle AP'er med complications ud over kronografer og simpel/perpetual calendar), Cartier (alle deres complications med tourbillon og minute repeaters), Breitling (deres tourbillons), Richard Mille (udvikler og producerer alt kompliceret som RM ikke får fra Vaucher), Hublots complications frem til for ca. et år siden, hvor Hublot kørte in-house efter at have overtaget Concepto, samt meget mere i den absolutte high end complication klasse. 

Din påstand med at Richard Mille har udviklet og produceret for AP er faktisk lige omvendt. RM udvikler og producerer INTET selv og deres complications lavet hos AP hos Renaud & Papi. 

Så spørger I mig er det pt. INGEN i verden, der formår at præsentere noget der ligner det AP gør. Det skulle lige være JLC som også er i samme liga på innovationsfronten af komplicerede urværker. De laver dog udelukkende værker til egne ure hvor AP-Renaud & Papi hjælper en lang række andre firmaer, der ikke selv har udviklings- og produktionsfaciliteter til selv at lave disse ultra giftige complications. 

Dette nye AP Schumi er derfor en 100 % in-house konstruktion der både er udviklet og produceret hos AP i deres udviklingscenter Renaud & Papi. 

/Mads 

 

I have just seen this,so please excuse my late answer.I am fully aware of what AP do,and who they own.And who does what,a chicken could google this.I have never been impressed by brands that have to take over others to get expertise.Even though many do it.Lange do not have to do this for example.They make new models new calibers,and set them in production.It is rubbish to suggest that AP are leading the field in complications.They are miles behind compaired to many brands.AP are not much different than a small independent watch brand,who develop special limited numbers of complication calibers.They have their run of the mill bread and butter watches like the Oak and the Offshore,with production calibers.This is where they earn the money.By buying shares or influence in talented independent watch makers,they can reap the rewards on the backs of others.not to mention the publicity it gives them.What you call a development center is nothing more than another firm.This is the way industry operates all over the world.If you do not have expertise,you buy it.And there is nothing wrong with this.But the watch industry love to use words like-working together or coperation etc etc.And its all sales guf.

                                  You can read about a new fantastic complication nearly everday.This tendency has taken off in recent years,and you might ask why?There are two answers to this,and you can pick the one you believe.One of the ways to break into the big time is for a independent young watchmaker to make a special complication or design.This can mean the birth of a new brand like for ex. F.Journe or being eaten up by a large brand.Complications are the absolute pinical of mechanical watch making,and they carry a lot of prestige.And that is why all the top tier high end brands,are always trying to out do one another.So any new talent out there is very much in demand,to join the race for the ultimate.This is the one side of the coin.

                                  The second answer is this.A high end brand invents a new complication.They make just a few models of this watch,that they send out to prestige watch stores.And then they wait to see how the publicity of unvieling their new master piece has worked,before they make anymore of them.What they need to do is to cover the costs of development,and this is unfortunatly not always the case.But they have achieved their goal of getting publicity as a brand at the forefront of new watch technology.So a lot of this is quite simply a publicity stunt.And how much of this really makes its way down to ordinary watches?A awfull lot of what is done in the watch industry,has been done before.And if you look back in the history of watches,it is definitely not complication watches that have advanced watchmaking .

                                    One little fact worth remembering here is this.Only one brand in the world make a serie produced complication watch.That brand is IWC.Most complication watches have absolutly no feedback from the users about reliability or how long it takes to service them or the costs.I can admire the know how and effort that goes into making them.But to be honest,they have very little to do with our time and date watches.

Jeg er direkte uenig i det meste du skriver. Synes det er noget direkte sludder du skriver som feks. at IWC er det eneste firma der laver seriefremstillede komplications. Det er jo direkte løgn så lad nu være at formulere det som "One little fact...". Det er ikke fakta men løgn... Jeg mener det er farligt at du formulerer dine indlæg som om de er faktuelle korrekte, frem for blot dine subjektive holdninger pakket ind i en masse fiktive udsagn, du oven i købet er så fræk at påstå alle kan google. Rigtig meget af det du skriver er jo direkte usandt og udelukkende noget du i din egen lille "sølvpapirshatteverden" mener er den sande historie. Jeg frygter der er læsere herinde der ikke ved så meget om ure at de læser dine indlæg og tror på dem.

Jeg diskuterer gerne hvad der er op og ned i urverden, og der er ingen tvivl om at urfirmaerne i stor stil driver kapitalistiske foretagender, hvis formål er at skabe overskud til deres ejere. Jeg er for længst kommet mig over denne "barske" virkelighed og vendt tilbage i fornøjelsen i det urene giver mig. Men så længe det er tonen her på urdebatten må jeg desværre sige at jeg blot læser lidt med fra tid til anden, og kun vælger at deltage når der går konspirationsteori og direkte usandheder i den som det var tilfældet her. Men jeg synes det er ærgerligt at man ikke kan diskutere high-end ure uden der altid skal gå Willy-crazy-talk i den

/Mads  

[P.N.]

Hvem nævnte kammertonen  
P.N.

[Stensbjerg]

Jeg troede at rød stue havde lukket i pinsen  

Vi ser ikke tingene ens det viser denne tråd med alt tydelighed,
Men heldigvis er man jo fri til selv at beslutte hvem ens holdninger skal ligge op af.

[willy]

Mads do you know the difference between a limited serie of watches,and a watch that is produced every year?I am wondering if you do.Because IWC have been making the Portuguese Grand Complication watch as a normal part of their watch production for many years now.It is not a limited edition made in a serie of a few watches.It is a normal production model for IWC,who make a certain number of them every year.And as such,is acknowledged as the only true serie multi complication production watch in the industry.Now you can dispute this .It is quite easy,you just tell us all about another complication watch that is produced like this.Many brands produce watches on order,but that is not the same.I have read this many times,and therefore assumed it was a fact.I could of course be wrong,and you could be right.So now it is up to you.
A link.http://www.iwc.com/en/experiences/when-a-complication-is-grande/
Read what Lange say about their complication.http://www.watchpaper.com/2013/09/11/the-grand-complication-of-a-lange-sohne-the-beginning-of-a-new-era/
This gives a bit of insight into the complication world.I know that PP take orders every year in very limited numbers for some of their complications.But again ,they are not standard production watches.

PS. I am in no way angry,about what you have written.I am more sorry that you felt the need to write it.We are after all just discussing watches,so lets keep to that.I bear no ill will because i know you have a passion for high end watches.And i respect that,even if i disagree with you.

[P.N.]

(24-05-2015, 10:03 PM)Stensbjerg Skrev: Jeg troede at rød stue havde lukket i pinsen  

Vi ser ikke tingene ens det viser denne tråd med alt tydelighed,
Men heldigvis er man jo fri til selv at beslutte hvem ens holdninger skal ligge op af.

Det er jo rene guldkorn du ryster ud af ærmet Stensbjerg
P.N.

[nicolaib]

Jeg tager hatten af for at du overhovedet gider Mads, og jeg er fuldstændig enig. Diskussioner hvor folk drømmer ting op bare for diskussionens skyld er jeg alt for træt af...

[Lars]

(25-05-2015, 08:42 AM)nicolaib Skrev: Jeg tager hatten af for at du overhovedet gider Mads, og jeg er fuldstændig enig. Diskussioner hvor folk drømmer ting op bare for diskussionens skyld er jeg alt for træt af...

Så må jeg hellere bruge det jeg også hader.....
mvh
Lars

[willy]

In the Watches International year book from 2004,it is written.The Portuguese Grand Complication with 659 parts-71 Jewels-perpetual calander-minute repeater that took 50,000 hours to develop will be produced in a limited number each year of 50 watches.I do not know of any other brand that have put multi complication watches into serie production like this.Most complication watches are made in just limited numbers for the reasons Lange give in my previous link on this thread.I have read countless times in articles over the years that IWC were the only brand that did this.Of course i could be wrong,and so could be what i have read.If anyone on this site has any information on this,please let me know.

 PS. A Little foot note. The Portuguese Grand Complication was born in the year 1990,and as far as i know is still in production.

[P.N.]

(25-05-2015, 12:40 PM)willy Skrev: In the Watches International year book from 2004,it is written.The Portuguese Grand Complication with 659 parts-71 Jewels-perpetual calander-minute repeater that took 50,000 hours to develop will be produced in a limited number each year of 50 watches.I do not know of any other brand that have put multi complication watches into serie production like this.Most complication watches are made in just limited numbers for the reasons Lange give in my previous link on this thread.I have read countless times in articles over the years that IWC were the only brand that did this.Of course i could be wrong,and so could be what i have read.If anyone on this site has any information on this,please let me know.

 PS. A Little foot note. The Portuguese Grand Complication was born in the year 1990,and as far as i know is still in production.

Jeg er imponeret over din viden Willy og din evne til at bevare en sober tone trods de personlige angreb. Det kunne være rart hvis det var muligt at udveksle synspunkter i stedet for blot at vælte skraldespanden.